Thursday, July 17, 2008

Too bad for Omar Khadr that Harper is not a leader

Gitmo trials rigged :
"He's not going to get a fair trial," [Lt.-Cmdr.] Kuebler told The Canadian Press from his office in Washington, D.C.
"Military commissions aren't designed to be fair. They're designed to produce convictions."
Harper could pre-empt the hearing by asking Washington to send Khadr - Guantanamo Bay's lone western detainee and also its youngest - back to Canada, Kuebler said.
"I hope that the prime minister of Canada finally decides to stand up and act like a prime minister of Canada and protect the rights of a Canadian citizen."
I mean, Algeria managed it for Algerian detainees. Algeria. Also Saudi Arabia, Pakistan ...
But we won't. Why? Apparently because the charges against Khadr are serious :

"Mr. Khadr is accused of very serious things," the prime minister said last week. "There is a legal process in the United States. He can make his arguments in that process."

"We can't ignore the serious charges Mr. Khadr is facing," [PM spokesweasel Kory] Teneycke said. "The proper forum for determining his guilt or innocence is a judicial process not a political process."
"

"Eugénie Cormier-Lassonde, spokesperson for Canada's department of foreign affairs, says Khadr faces "serious charges ... includ[ing] murder, attempted murder, conspiracy, material
support for terrorism, and spying, all in violation of the laws of war."

See, apparently Canada doesn't do "serious things". Sure, we're ok for the non-serious stuff, like making apologies to First Nations and promising aid to Africa that we don't deliver, but when it comes to the really serious things like torture and illegal kangaroo courts - well, we leave that stuff up to the Serious People : Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld - the people who can't travel outside their country without triggering war criminal proceedings.

Gates and CondiRice are on record as wanting Guantanamo shut down, McCain and Obama have vowed to close it, and US Supreme Court has ruled against it three times in as many years.

As Kuebler put it : "he can stop taking his orders from the Bush administration and stop being the last leader of a Western country to subsidize a failed process in Guantanamo Bay."

But Harper is not a leader, so Lt.-Cmdr. William Kuebler, a conservative Republican in the U.S. Navy, is doing his best to fill in for him.

18 comments:

West End Bob said...

Yee Haw, Alison, Yee Haw!

Go get 'em . . . .

Osumashi Kinyobe said...

If Omar Khadr, son of a proud al-Qaeda family, can explain why he willingly went to Afghanistan (and why his welfare-accepting mother happily saw him off), why he dealt with explosives, why he killed a medic and injured another soldier and why he declared (as written in yesterday's National Post)that lying was "fun", then we can resolve this.

rumor said...

I'll take a shot at that. This is just off the top of my head, but:

Why he went to Afghanistan and why he dealt with explosives? He was a teenager and his father (indeed, his whole family) told him to.

Why he perhaps killed a medic? Possibly because he was being attacked (notwithstanding he was being attacked by people he was taught are his enemies). Don't forget he had apparently been shot three times before he threw the grenade.

Why he declared lying is fun? Because it can be? Relevance?

But let's put aside the questions for the moment. You're wrong. We can't resolve this if he can explain these questions. We can resolve by putting him in a just forum, at which point then he can explain these questions.

Paul said...

Agreed, Alison.

With all of the recent revelations re: Khadr's poor treatment, as well as the contradictory evidence that casts serious doubt on his guilt (as well as the fact that he was a child soldier)(and that Gitmo is illegal)(shall I go on?), Harper needs to bring Khadr home. Khadr can face a fair trial here, since the US seems incapable of providing him one there.

While it may be a difficult standard to uphold, a country that professes the universality of human rights is required to give these rights to all individuals regardless of the perceived crime. Only through exercising the right to a fair trial will we discover his guilt or innocence.

Q said...

Every adult in this kid's miserable life has let him down and prevented him from having a normal life.

Harper is just the most recent adult to fuck him over.

We all signed on to a Geneva Convention that treats children in a war zone as off limits, certainly from torture and interrogation.

Osumashi Kinyobe said...

Omar Khadr did what he wanted to do. A teenager is not the same as a child. He was not brainwashed (if you maintain he was brainwashed, then deport his mother and the rest of his family. His sister wouldn't mind. One must concede that rabid support of a known terrorist organisation is un-Canadian and dangerous to the community). His family is proud of their connections to al-Qaeda and have not denounced them, nor, to my knowledge, has poor, little Omar done so. He is not a Ugandan child soldier snatched from his home. He was being attacked? From whom would he defend himself? Not Canadians. If you maintain lying is fun, have this poor little soldier lie to your face. Hopefully, he will never re-enter the country to do that.

Q said...

Harper is a rabid supporter of Bush.
Bush lied his way into an unprovoked, unnecessary war in Iraq that's killed over 100,000 and caused untold suffering.
This is true terrorism on a grand scale.

We need adults at some point to say torture is wrong, he's a Canadian being mistreated, so innocent or guilty he should be here facing our justice system not a kangaroo court in another country temporarily entranced by the simplistic evils of fascism.

Muslims Against Sharia said...

Hypocrisy of the "Repatriate Omar Khadr to Canada" Movement

As soon as the Gitmo interrogation tape of Omar Khadr hit the Internet, the blogosphere was flooded with demands to repatriate him to Canada. This wave is reminiscent of a Soviet campaign to free Luis Corvalán from the "fascist regime" of Augusto Pinochet thirty five years ago. The scenario is strikingly similar. A "victim" held by "fascist regimes" this time run by Bush and Harper, and a public outcry for justice. Except for the fact that Luis Corvalán didn't kill anyone and didn't fight for a terrorist group that wants to impose Sharia.

The "repatriate Khadr" crowd describes him as "a child", "a kid", "a boy", and even "a torture victim", with no facts to substantiate the torture claims notwithstanding. They complain about Khadr being mistreated, again, without anything to back up their claims. Some of them are outraged about "child abuse." And they all scream for justice.

They want justice? OK, let's talk about JUSTICE. What about justice for Sgt. First Class Christopher J. Speer, who was (according to an eyewitness) murdered by this "child"? What about justice for Tabitha Speer, who is a widow because of this "kid"? What about justice for Taryn and Tanner Speer, who are left without a father by this "a boy"? And what about all those Afghani civilians and NATO troops who are a little bit safer because this "torture victim" is behind bars? How many of these "repatriate Khadr" hypocrites concern themselves with justice for real victims? In literally hundreds of posts, we couldn't find a single one.

One would ask, what is the reason for this idiocy? The answer is simple. Ignorance. Complete and utter ignorance. Let's forget for a second that Omar Khadr killed Christopher Speer. Let's forget that Khadr's father was an al Qaeda financier. Let's forget that Khadr's family is known for it being al Qaeda sympathizers. Let's just remember what this "child" was fighting for in Afghanistan.

This is what Taliban-imposed Sharia looks like in real life: http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2000/07/hypocrisy-of-repatriate-omar-khadr-to.html

Why don't all of you, bleeding heart demagogues go to Afghanistan and spend a day in a Taliban-controlled territory? And let's talk about Khadr when you get back. If you get back.

Paul said...

Hello Muslims against Sharia: I think many individuals calling for Khadr's return can understand your frustration. I, for one, understand that war-related deaths are always a tragedy. And, yes, there is another side to this story - the side of the grieving family and friends of Speer.

However, that's not really the point (at least not for me). Canadians and Americans are supposed to be living by democratic principles enshrined in our respective constitutions. A core democratic principle is that all individuals have a right to a fair trial. Without a guaranteed fair trial, those at the levers of power may be tempted to use the courts for their own political goals. Moreover, the right to a fair trial is the best way a society can sort out the criminals from the innocent.

I'm not saying that Khadr is innocent. I'm saying that his innocence or guilt cannot be possibly known if the trial is not fair. There is ample evidence that he won't get a fair trial at Gitmo. Thus, a guilty ruling from the Gitmo courts would substantively mean very little.

He should face a trial in Canada; we can't possibly do any worse than Gitmo. If he's found guilty here, so be it.

Muslims Against Sharia said...

"A core democratic principle is that all individuals have a right to a fair trial."

That is not true at all. First, an enemy combatant could be confined without any trials until the cessation of hostilities. But he is not even a lawful combatant as defined by the Geneva Convention, he is a terrorist. Terrorists like Khadr forfeited any rights the second they took up terrorism

"He should face a trial in Canada; we can't possibly do any worse than Gitmo. If he's found guilty here, so be it."

As multiple terrorism trials have shown, civilian justice system is not equipped to deal with terrorism cases; sometimes it is impossible to prove intent beyond the reasonable doubt.

Anonymous said...

Hey, MASh, got many actual Muslims in your group yet or is your membership still mostly confined to neo-con jews like israpundit and atlas shrugged?

Muslims Against Sharia said...

We wouldn't expect a dumb nazi fuck to understand the difference between a member of an organization and a contributor to organization's blog. Anyone could be a contributor, even a dumb nazi fuck like you. Just kidding. Dumb nazi fucks are not welcome.

Paul said...

Hello Muslims against Sharia,

“First, an enemy combatant could be confined without any trials until the cessation of hostilities.”

Let’s set aside the controversial nature of the US-defined “enemy combatant” classification (e.g., it’s not recognized in international law, it hasn’t been used since the WWII prosecution of Nazi saboteurs found in the US, etc.).

You are right that rules change in wartime. And yes, the US detains ‘enemy combatants’ without trial – though, this is another controversial issue that the Supreme Court has lately complicated to the chagrin of the Executive. But, the process still must end in a trial at some point, which is the crux of my point (ignoring the broader issue of the reliability of Khadr’s interrogation, which might be used against him at a future trial). So, even if the US holds Khadr until the end of hostilities, they need to give him a trial. Will this trial be fair? I suspect not.

“But he is not even a lawful combatant as defined by the Geneva Convention, he is a terrorist.”

The GC would currently classify Khadr as a POW. There has been no competent tribunal to assess whether he is lawful or unlawful. Note that a US court found the Combatant Status Review Tribunals to be not competent, so the CSRT cannot rightfully change his POW status. Is Khadr a terrorist? We won’t know until he has faced a competent tribunal and, later, a trial. (In fact, if we are evidencing international law, Khadr may be considered a child soldier – if that’s the case, then the parameters of this discussion change considerably.)

“...civilian justice system is not equipped to deal with terrorism cases…”

Indeed, trying a case of an accused terrorist is likely a challenge. Does this mean that we should bend the law? I’m not sure. There are probably cases in which I would agree to a tougher procedure, such as strong circumstantial evidence of genocide. But Khadr is not in that realm of accused criminal. Thus, he deserves a fair trial. If the trial is cheapened, then the verdict is cheapened.

As for the civilian system, it convicted Ressam, the would-be LAX bomber. So, it is possible for the civilian courts to deal with these cases.

Muslims Against Sharia said...

"Let’s set aside the controversial nature of the US-defined “enemy combatant” classification (e.g., it’s not recognized in international law"

If you keep repeating bullshit, it does not become a fact. Khadr is an enemy combatant as defined by Geneva Convention. The fact that he failed to meet two attributes (did not have recognizable insignia and did not adhere to the rules of war) makes him an unlawful combatant without the protection of Geneva Convention.

"But, the process still must end in a trial at some point, which is the crux of my point"

No, it doesn't, that's why the crux of your point is based on nothing but your opinion.

"So, even if the US holds Khadr until the end of hostilities, they need to give him a trial."

Bullshit. Enemy combatants must be released after the cessation of hostilities unless they are charged with war crimes.

"The GC would currently classify Khadr as a POW."

Again, repeating an idiotic statement does not make it a fact. Either read the beginning of this post, or read the Geneva Convention itself. It clearly states the requirements of being classified as a POW, and Khard, or any Taliban terrorist, does not meet those requirements.

"There has been no competent tribunal to assess whether he is lawful or unlawful."

There is no need for that; Geneva Convention is very clear on the subject.

"Is Khadr a terrorist? We won’t know until he has faced a competent tribunal"

If a person fighting for a terrorist group (Taliban) is not a terrorist, what is a terrorist?

"Khadr may be considered a child soldier"

Bullshit. Child soldiers fight under the threat of death.

"Does this mean that we should bend the law?"

No, it means that terrorism must be treated as a military issue, not a civilian one.

"As for the civilian system, it convicted Ressam, the would-be LAX bomber."

Big fucking deal! The asshole was caught with a trunk full of explosives. What about Nossair, al-Arian, Liberty City Seven, etc.?

"So, it is possible for the civilian courts to deal with these cases."

It is possible. It is also possible to run across a busy highway and not get hit by a car. The question is, why do it?

North Van's Grumps said...

Link to Vive le Canada is broken

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/staticpages/index.php/ribbon/

Link to Vive le Canada should be

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/

Paul said...

Oh dear. Well, as a spokesperson for an organization that claims to want a peaceful Islam, I find your aggressive tactics ironic. Too bad, since when a discussion turns to bullying, I sign out.

Muslims Against Sharia said...

"Too bad, since when a discussion turns to bullying, I sign out."

If you expect to spout bullshit and not to be called on it, you might want to stay in your echo chamber.

Osumashi Kinyobe said...

For the last time, Omar Khadr, son of a terrorist, happily went to Afghanistan to kill Americans in a guerrila group, not in a recognised army with a uniform fighting for the rights of others (if shooting schoolgirls and teachers is cause enough for the Taliban and al-Qaeda, then why would anyone support them?). As a Canadian citizen, he was not at war with the Americans but that did not stop him from killing a medic and wounding another solder, both of whom were family men. Aside from crying and whining, he did not prove he was mistreated, that he was a pawn forced into warfare, or that he was never involved in the death of Sgt. Speer. If he is released into Canadian custody, he will be set free.
If the posters here can stop patronising and insulting other posters (i.e.- Mr. anonymous) and look at the facts, someone might actually arrive at a conclusion that makes sense.

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